The Death of Dianne Whipple/Dog Attack Defense

The tragic death of Dianne Whipple- was it an accident? Predictable behavior of dangerous dogs? Was justice served? We have so many questions! Tangents include bad haircuts, murder by snake, Boston Terriers and will law please call us? 

Video of a woman being rescued by a man doing a rear naked choke on a dog. Warnings for dog attack!   https://youtu.be/ADRIfYzvUEQ

Video of a man avoiding a dog attack by applying a guillotine choke to an attacking dog. Warnings for dog attack!
https://youtube.com/shorts/PheBETsg5oA?si=sYvnKj5ljr1Ds-x4

Transcript

0:02

Hey everyone, welcome to True Crime Defense, the podcast that nerds out on true crime cases, gives you tips on how to stay safe, and never blames the target of any crime. Hope you enjoy the show! okay, do you have the mental capacity to go through this one? I don't know why this one was so much harder for me than the other ones, because I'm, I think to me it's that Thing of like scary stories. Some people don't like the ghost demon things and some people don't like the real people intruder things. I think this one is just animal attacks are just scary because it's so possible for anybody and so it was just really hard to get through and then you just, they're descriptive words. You feel everything they were describing. So this one, was definitely more difficult than the other ones we've done. Yeah. Radhika, are you comfortable with me talking into your ear holes? Yes, I am Shelly. Okay, great. this one was a tough one for Rodica and for me, you guys all know that I love dogs so much, and we're talking about a dreadful dog mauling. We have some warnings. It is a lengthy and brutal dog mauling of a woman, nonstop victim blaming by the dog owners. The two dogs also are euthanized, so it doesn't turn out very well for them either. The dog owner's adopted son is a white supremacist, which will become mildly important later. What else? I think you got it. Okay. We watched American Justice with Bill Curtis slash the San Francisco dog Molly, which we found on YouTube. Bill says 5 million dog attacks are reported in the U. S. each year. 15 to 20 are fatal. Bill and I want to know, how responsible are people when their pets kill? I just thought it was interesting, so that's why I chose this one, and I did, I remembered this one I was living in the Bay Area to revisit it. It's January 26, 2001, 37 year old financial executive Sharon Smith, partner of 7 years to 33 year old Diane Whipple gets home to see police tape at her apartment. The landlord tells her dogs attacked a woman and she knows that it was Diane. Diane is barely alive when medical help arrives and she's taken to the hospital where the surgeon tells Sharon Smith that Diane had been without a pulse for 23 minutes and that she was brain dead. We hear the 911 call from a neighbor describing ferocious dogs. Mylanta erotica, this one, the photos, like I did not need. That no, and you were saying, just the language that they use to describe it. It just reminded me of, when in 5th grade, your teachers, use descriptive words, they really use descriptive words. You just put yourself in that moment. It was hard. Yeah, and I think for us, because we do want to be so sensitive, even though I doubt anyone beyond our siblings will ever listen to this. I just, I wouldn't want to. Hurt or harm anyone who loved any of our victims or targets of crime. So yeah, just watch with your own discretion. American justice is not on the air anymore, so we can't really yell at them and tell them not to do this because I don't need to see the photographs or the language in there. But you know, our siblings, I guess, if they were to create a documentary. We can live without it. Kelly, I'm talking to you. All right. The neighbors down the hall own two Presa Canarios, which are large protective dogs. The dogs were removed on snare poles by animal control and were killed soon after the attack. Marjorie Knoller, one of their owners, is the only witness, and she has a few scratches and is covered in blood. Marge, I'm going to call her Marge, because I don't think she would like that. She says, the dogs were gentle and well trained, and the attack was a surprise. She says, Hera, the female, was loose. And already, Marge, I'm like, why is a protection dog loose in a San Francisco apartment building? Yeah. And then Bain, the male, was on a leash as Diane Whipple came down the hall. Harrow woofed and then Bain went wild as he dragged Marge and charged down the hallway, diane was carrying groceries to her apartment. Diane is five foot three and 110 pounds. Bain weighed 140 pounds. He jumps up on Diane, who's standing in front of her apartment. And one thing that was sort of helpful, we do see her keys still in the doorknob. So we know how far she got because we kind of have to trust Marge. She's the only one who's talking in this scenario. Diane got into the apartment and that's when Bain started biting her. Then Harrah started attacking. Marge said that she lay on top of Diane and told her to lay still, but Diane kept trying to get out from under her. And so begins the blaming of the victim. Yep. And then Radhika, this one, it lasted 10 minutes. I know, yeah, I'm just getting goosebumps. and I was thinking today while I was out, I know people are calling 9 1 1, and I'm sure people are afraid to go out in the hallway. But, yeah, what do you do? You know? Like, I don't... I think the biggest thing is if even the owners can't get control of the dogs, who are you to think that you're going to get any more control over them? Ugh, this must have been... If you're sitting in an apartment listening to it, like, oh, my goodness. According to Jackson with an ex Vander Beacon, who is a reporter quote, most dog mullings aren't fatal, but then when they are fatal, it's usually children or the elderly unquote, which held up to scrutiny when I researched it. Okay. So this is an unusual case, partly because of that. And because as Bill says, Diane Whipple quote, captured the public sympathy because she was the epitome of modern San Francisco, young, prosperous, and gay. And I mean, Radhika, I think I'm doing San Francisco wrong because I got a couple of those down. Definitely not prosperous. All the wrong places, I actually felt really proud of Diane, if I'd already didn't like her enough. She ran a marathon to celebrate her birthday the week before her death. She was a lacrosse coach and started the school's first women's competitive team. I really related to Diane at the time, back then I was doing endurance events in the Bay area. she just seemed like a really positive, active. Person, and she's so horribly taken away and I think part of that problem, too, is that the owners just didn't seem to really care. Oh, yeah, now we get to 59 year old Robert Noel, Marge Noler's husband and owner of the dogs. Apparently, there were dozens of phone calls about the dogs lunging, snarling at residents. Presa Canarias are banned in several countries, because they're considered dangerous. The married couple were attorneys, so I'm going to call Marge and Bob. They had opened their own practice in their apartment. They defended inmates in the prison system. And here's why this is an even bigger story because they are bananas. I read a Rolling Stone article about the key players called mad dogs and lawyers. I swear, Erotica, it's like a season of sons of anarchy. Oh, geez. I want to give you a warning. There's a lot more creepy and nasty details that we're not going to get into on this podcast. So read that article with. Care. So they adopted 38 year old Paul Schneider, who was nicknamed Corn Fed because he's a big guy. He's serving a life sentence at the time for attempted murder of one of his previous lawyers. Had to pause, take a moment. I'm like, I think Marge and Bob just really can't see any red flags. No! He literally murdered the people who defended him just for you to go back into that circle. Great, good for you guys., he didn't, he wasn't successful. It was only an attempted murder, but still. Okay, he's an alleged member of the Aryan Brotherhood. In the article I read, the author says he has a tattoo on his hand with the letters AB. Apparently stand for Aryan Brotherhood, so I'm pretty sure he's in. He started raising dogs by proxy with people on the outside using his company called Dog O War. Marge and Bob got their dogs from this guy, cord fed, Paul Schneider. Well, actually, they didn't get them from him. They got them from a woman who was raising them, and she wanted to get rid of them because they kept attacking and eating animals on her farm. Yikes. That was from the article also. January 31st, five days after their dogs mauled Diane, the couple put out an 18 page statement, which implies that Diane Whipple was to blame because she may have been wearing perfume or because she was a serious athlete, may have been users of steroids, which could have interested Bane. Oh. They didn't do themselves any favors and the public outcry became louder. Yeah. I have to laugh at the things I can laugh at this one., Bob should have already been in jail for that haircut. Yeah. Bob talks about the attack and lawyer speak. He does not apologize and denies that the dogs were aggressive or trained to attack. He says the only reason Bane attacked was because Diane struck Marge during the melee. Okay. February 8th, Margery goes on Good Morning America and blames people complaining about her dogs as seeking their 15 minutes of fame. And blames Diane for not going into her apartment. She also blames her for not getting out from under her on the floor. So no matter what Diane did, it was her fault in Marge's mind. Right. This is so weird. Like, any lawyer worth their salt will tell you to just, sit down and shut up. Yes! And they just seem, they cannot stop their verbal diarrhea., in the beginning when we first heard that they were doing all this pro bono work for, people who were already in jail, I was like, oh wow, these guys are doing some pretty cool things. And that thought probably lasted all of 45 seconds before the rest of the things came out. And I was like, oh, you guys are, Absolutely bananas. Nothing you do makes you want to trust them as lawyers either. Why would you go on and say all these things if silence is probably your biggest weapon in this case? Just put your head down, keep quiet, be apologetic, look, look the part at least. It's just not being smart. I kind of felt like I felt like, in the middle of the pandemic, when we saw people on the street and we're like, Oh my God, hi, I feel like they're in their office together alone, traveling with dogs and they're just like, people want our attention. We're so happy to see you guys. We just could not stop talking and they're terrible people. Okay. March 9th, March says, Oh, quote, this is a horrible tragedy and an absolutely awful experience for everybody. Especially for me, I just wrote Marjorie, shut your face. Grand jury charges Marge with murder in the 2nd degree, which is the 1st time that charge was issued for a dog attack. And somehow they were also charged with involuntary manslaughter. Which is interesting, and I think that's part of the legal problems we have later on, and then they're both charged with owning a mischievous animal, which sounds so cute for what happened, to prove second degree murder, the state has to prove implied malice and prove she knew her dogs are dangerous and did nothing to protect them. The public, there's speculation that if they had just come down and apologize, the law might not have even gotten involved. Yeah. Now we need Nedra Ruiz, who is one of the defense lawyers and boy, is she a character. It's dramatic. I think she really stands out because this is the time of the pantsuit and she's wearing a blazer and matching long skirt as she jumps around and kneels on the floor and waves her hands and shouts to show how Marjorie Miller tried to protect Diane Whipple. courtroom photo footage usually shows people just trying to keep their eyeballs open and stay awake. So, I appreciate the enthusiasm, but it was just way over the top. I think it worked against her. Yeah, I hope Nedra found some stage acting gigs to get some of that energy out after work. Their defense is that none of the complaints were reported until after the death of Diane. Marge is a nightmare. And so, of course, she testifies in her own defense. She said she was devastated and traumatized. I hope victims families don't watch these documentaries about their loved ones. Yeah, like, we're talking about the language is just really, it feels very insensitive. Everyone's talking about this. And yeah, I don't even want to get into it. It's just gross. I will say, as a sidebar, if there's anything good to come out of this, it's that Marge's husband, Bob was able to get a barber in prison and have that tragic page boy taken care of., the jury finds Bob guilty of involuntary manslaughter and owning a mischievous animal. She's found guilty of murder in the second degree because there's testimony from a prison official about the couple's relationship with the Aryan Brotherhood. Marge's lawyer appealed. The judge then overturns Marge's second degree murder conviction. Yeah. Somehow throughout this, Sharon Smith manages to get out of bed, brush her hair, get dressed, and be interviewed, and she's just so calm and measured. I don't know how she does it, and this experience was just like another huge loss for her. Yeah. Marge and Bob were both given four year sentences. In the episode, they leave us in May 2005. At that point, because someone in the court system thinks Marge knew the dogs were dangerous, that was enough to Justify the murder conviction, I guess, legally speaking, and her murder conviction was reinstated. so I did a little bit more digging. So she went back to jail in 2008 and as of February 16th, 2023, she was still in jail. She was denied parole and she can retry in 3 years. The board cited 2 disciplinary actions against Marge, including biting a correctional officer in 2016 and refusing to change rooms in 2020 because it didn't have railings she needed to avoid falling. They talk a lot about the public and the media driving this case, and I wanted to know what you thought. I feel like I've recently watched a lot of things where things sometimes escalate because the public gets involved I think this case had to get moved from the Bay Area and San Francisco to L. A. because too many people were invested locally. But I feel like sometimes... Unless other people get involved, it's how everybody feels like they're invested. And if that was me, I want to see how fair this whole thing is going to be. And so I think I'm sometimes torn on it because sometimes I do believe things get out of hand. And then, I think the judge said in the beginning, he was like, while in the court's eyes, you guys are not guilty by the people's eyes. You are guilty. And so it kind of tows that fine line of like, are people running the show or is the judicial system running it? yeah, my thinking was like, Marjorie and Bob are really abrasive and unattractive in my opinion. And Diane is a pretty blonde woman with no voice in the merit matter. And then Sharon Smith is this really well spoken, quiet, professional woman. And then along with their ties to this, it's like this weird 38 year old son there, there's so many. Insinuations, he's a convicted felon. I think that all played into it., you want to make someone pay. I do think they did not do it themselves any favors. No, no. Yeah, they're terrible. They come off as awful in front of the camera and as honestly as bad as I feel for Diane locals, family and friends. I'm not sure if I can consider it murder. I don't think she's a threat to the public. She's just a scuzz ball. I know there's punishment and there's keeping people off the street for public safety, but I. I don't think she's a threat, so I don't know. I just have a lot of feelings. No, Shelly, I actually do agree with you. My sister and I were talking about that and I was like, the fact that she let her, not that she let her dog, but her dog is the reason that someone else died. It's going to be like obedient to you and listen to you and something just snaps in that animal's mind that makes them do these things. I think you should be held accountable for maybe negligence, you should have leashed them. You should have done something to ensure that this couldn't have happened. But it is also. An animal that sometimes you just don't have control over. So I don't think it should be that she should be charged for murder. You're right. I think murder should be reserved for people who are a danger to society and therefore need to be put away from the public, but I don't think that's what she is. It was negligence, but I don't think it was. Intentional murder. Something to think about for sure. Marge did make sort of an apologetic statement where she felt responsible for not preventing Bane from doing what he did. No apology. And then SF Gate article Sharon Smith says Bane snapped at Diane's wrist a month before her death and a large watch kept the bite from landing. She said that Diane would carefully open the door to check to see if the dogs were around this time. She had come up to the apartment and it was why she was already into, their territory before she realized she was in danger. there's a lot of crazy information about these two. So if you're inclined, feel free to do your own research with the warning we talked about. I will say they were accused of adopting Paul Schneider to make it easier to get access to some money he got from a medical lawsuit so that they could run his dog award business., I saw in a couple of places they're going to be used to protect the Mexican mafia's drug businesses, which seems really weird for the Aryan Brotherhood to do. Right. And another source said it was to protect Aryan Brotherhood meth labs. Okay, okay, great. All right. According to the article, a veterinarian had sent a letter to Marjorie that said that the dogs were serious risks and liabilities., so even though dog attacks that result in death are pretty rare, dog bites aren't and they can be expensive. They can cause physical and emotional harm. And so I wanted to just find some tips on staying safe with dogs just in general, I have so many issues with them as dog owners. Having two large dogs in a San Francisco apartment, that's just not okay for anyone involved. Also trying to control even one dog that's larger and stronger than you are is just a recipe for disaster. I volunteer at the SPCA and I take dogs for walks. And as soon as I get them on a leash, I had the leash, wrapped around my wrist, I have them under control. And if I feel even the slightest pull, if I can't sit on the ground and keep that dog from Pulling I'll just find another activity. I'm not going to like that dog out amongst the general population. Oh, my gosh. I don't know how this didn't happen before., that's so crazy. March didn't even bother to have Hera under control. And then she couldn't stop being with her weight. And these 2, I feel like they had really something wrong happening in their lives. That's my nursing opinion. I yeah, to make it seem like they never done this before. And just something. Cause them to snap., usually things build up. There's no way. They just did it 1 fine day. Yeah, there are many reports and my understanding. Anyway, there are 2 separate things. I had read that, Bob had either, a minor cut or his whole finger had been taken off by Bain. So. He was well aware that they could bite,, and then there were so many people that said that the dogs had lunged or snarled and, I'm not going to say aggressive because I don't think dogs are aggressive. I think they defend themselves and they defend their owners. That's just what dogs do. They're animals. They do those things. They don't make rational choices. The American Humane website, which I'm assuming is the American Humane Society, says don't reach over or through fences or barriers to pet or touch a dog. Never tease, chase, or harass a dog. Radhika, I hope you're not doing that anymore. I feel like even when people are walking their dogs, I always ask permission like, oh, is it okay to pet their animal if the animal comes towards you? Because you just don't know what the temperament of that animal is. All I want is to just lay on the ground and have dogs just snuggle with me, but I'm never gonna do that. I always follow these tips, so I'm just gonna keep saying, so don't enter a property containing a dog if you're not accompanied by the dog's person. Dogs can be protected of the, of their family and territory and think it's their job to protect them. The ASPCA, American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Society! It's like... So early 1900s, we're going to have tea and we're going to have a society. They gave me some ways to determine if a dog might attack. So some pre incident indicators. A dog may try to make themselves look bigger. And so you'll see their ears may be up and forward. The fur on their back and tail may stand on end or puff out their tail. Maybe straight up. It may even wag, which some people confuse with the dog being happy. You're friendly. They may have a stiff, straight legged stance and be moving toward or staring directly at what they think is approaching threat. They may also bare their teeth, grovel, lunge, or bark. And then I thought this was really interesting, something to keep in mind. Also, dogs can have mixed feelings and they may look friendly, but maybe avoid dogs until you really know how it's feeling. If there's any doubt, just let it be. Very similar to consent. CDC says, what's that called? Center for Disease Control. If an unfamiliar dog approaches you, stay still and be calm. Avoid direct eye contact with the dog. Don't panic. Make loud noises or run. Although they do say, say no or go home in a firm, deep voice and stand with the side of your body facing the dog. In my training to volunteer with dogs, they said because most people are taller. Then most dogs, dogs can already feel a little bit threatened. And so instead of coming straight on to a dog, even with my little dog, who knows me very well in the morning, she's sometimes surprised about who's up and what's happening, but, turn your body. I always approach a dog with my left hand, just because if they do bite, that's less of a problem than I'm right handed. So that's what I'm thinking. But I just kind of turned my body to the side and, put my hand out very. Close to my body, just so that, they know, I'm not going to,, lunge at them. Slowly raise your hands to your neck with your elbows in and wait for the dog to pass or slowly back away. They don't say why, but presumably it's to cover your neck in case the dog goes for your throat. Probably Cover your face to, I would think, the American veterinary medical association basically says, keep your distance. If you want to interact with the dog, let the dog initiate. Put your hand out and let the dog smell you. 1st, they do talk about owner responsibility and controlling the dog and yeah, you should not weigh 120 pounds and be expected to control the dog that weighs the same amount or is bigger. World Animal Foundation, they talk about some dog bite related fatalities, and dog bite fatalities, only 10. 5 percent of, in those cases are charges filed, pit bulls seem to be responsible for the majority of attacks and deaths. I don't really want to get that much into it. I owned a pit bull for 13 years, best, sweetest, most loyal dog. I've, I know that they have a bad reputation and I know that they're banned in a lot of places because they are. Strange to be attack dogs. Yeah, and fight other dogs. And I never thought I would say this, but there are actually jiu jitsu chokes that can be applied to a dog that I didn't know. Right? They've saved people from further injury, if not death. I'm going to put two videos in the show notes. One is this nine year old boy who put a choke on a dog, like from behind. He put his arm around the neck to keep a young girl from being further attacked. And then there's a video of a man who is charged at by a large dog. And he's able to collect, he's facing the dog and he gets down on the dog's level and he just wraps his arm around the dog's neck really tight. And the dog's just kind of dragging him, but the dog's teeth like can't get to him and he's able to, somebody else comes and gets control of the dog. I got curious about using animals to kill people and Radhika India delivered. Dang, of course they did. Well, you know, it's only because my, search history is all about Indian matchmaking. So she's like, she wants information on India. I found in 2021 an article on NBC News with the tagline, death by snake bites has long been common in India. Murder by snake bites may, a more recent trend. I've totally heard this, when you're in the villages, you got easy access to yeah. Snakes, venomous snakes. Yeah, it talked about two cases of using a cobra to bite and eventually kill, which feels risky because, you know, it's going to stick around. So you can't really go back into the residence. You have to account for you not being there at the time, but people have tried it. I'm sure people have gotten away with it that I got curious about second degree murder just for some context., second degree murder is a crime that involves killing another person intentionally, but without premeditation or planning. It can also result from an assault or a reckless act that shows a lack of concern for human life. And I'm always been interested. We got to talk to a lawyer, we got to get somebody to come on here because like first degree murder, generally, you thought about it, you planned it ahead of time, you'll spend the rest of your life in jail if you're convicted. Second degree murder. What if you're one of those people who just gets really angry, So you spend probably, usually it's 15, 25 years, and it can be two life, but possibility of parole. Most people don't spend that long in jail. I'm actually really shocked that Marjorie Knoller spent that long. Usually you spend about half from my understanding. I think it's like when you have that good behavior at the midpoint, they check you out, and if you're good, then yeah, they do give you. Parole at least and let you go faster. But when you said she was still there in 2023, I was like, still. Yeah. But if you think about that, so that person gets out and what, 7 and a half years, they still have anger management problems. It's probably worse. Right. Aren't they more likely to kill somebody again? Yeah. So some food for thought., and then I stumbled on a really distressing documentary called mauled when police dogs attack it's put out by the marshall project. org and awarding. There's a lot of violent and scary body cam and other videos of black people being attacked. And I didn't know this. I did not get another source. So just putting that out there. This is just from them. Police dogs are responsible for 3600 ER visits per year with black males being bitten at higher rates than others. Dog bites send more people to the hospital than any other use of force by police, which is all new information to me. I had no idea. This is from the public health, LACounty. gov, and it does say that owners of any dog bite is liable for the damages suffered by any person, but in the same article, it does say that this, it shall not apply. in any case where the victim of the dog bites, was prompted by the use of a dog in military or police work. Pretty surprised at the rates that it's,, the police dogs send people to the hospital.., I really hadn't thought about that. I love me a working dog and I really am starting to rethink,. They talk about it in the. The video, the movie, they interviewed Ashley White and she was attacked by a police dog and we see all of it. We see the body cam and the ER photos. And all I could think of, along with the racism is how expensive it ends up being and how the long term pain and physical, emotional damage stays with you. But if you just think about. These are for the most part. They're very young people. Health insurance is really hard to come by. And so, it can be thousands, tens of thousands of dollars and that follows you forever if you can't pay it off. We see videos of dogs, attacking people who are already subdued, which oh, my gosh. And the that the dog picks up on handlers emotional state and may attack based on the state of the handler. Tying it back to maybe Marjorie Noler and really made me wonder about Bob and Marge. There are 2 kind of mousy people. They did use their weird connection with corn fed and their dogs maybe to feel bigger in the world and maybe more threatening. That's my nursing opinion. Yeah, I do remember that 1. I forgot what his name was, but that 1, lawyer on. The prosecutor's side he was like, Marge got all these cuts trying to save Diane, but he's like, my mom does gardening and she gets bigger cuts than you did. Let's not really pretend like we were trying to save her or something. Yeah, if a dog is brutally attacking someone and you try to put yourself on top of them to protect them, there's no way you didn't get a sneak bite in there as well. Do you think she wasn't protecting her? I don't believe that, put your body over her body. I do believe once she realized what was happening, she probably tried to pull them off I just don't believe that she was that selfless to try and do that act. Which is probably why she only got a couple scratches, probably with her feet or whatever, their nails, but I, there's no way the number of bites Diane got that Marge didn't get at least one if she put her body over her, over Diane's body. Yeah, I think you CSI'd it. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it. I didn't fully believe her, but I, she was covered in blood. So I did feel like, well, okay, I guess that's possible, but yeah, you're right. The dog's not going to be super discerning about what they're biting. Probably. Totally. Yeah. It does sound traumatic. Wow, you really, put a different, pathway in my brain when I think about that. Nice. Alright, what else do you want to tell the people? I actually looked into, different animal bites, cause I was just, wondering, like you said, statistically, there are lots of dog attacks, but, it doesn't, they don't all lead to death. And so I was just looking into, if you were attacked by a dog, depending on the dog, maybe, if you knew what their bite power was, you'd be more or less willing to approach certain dogs. The unit we're gonna use is pounds per square inch, so psis. So just for humans to start up at the baseline, humans have 120 to 140 p s And the, the animal with the most powerful bite is actually a Nile crocodile and there is 5,000 p s I. Which like, just bye bye. If you eat me, just please take me and kill me right away. Don't let me survive that attack. A lion is actually 650. So now we'll get into dogs. So I looked up a Chihuahua and just because their head size is so small, they're the ones that are gonna be least life threatening, but their PSI is a hundred. Like they are nasty and rude and they do not care they will snap and bite watch out totally that's just in there the small dog syndrome where they're just like I'm just gonna go for it. A Labrador is two 30 and the dogs that were in in this documentary, the press secondary,, their power is 540. That 540 is still way more than one of the most feared dogs, pit bulls. So pit bulls are only 235 and at the press scenario is 540. So, the other ones, German Shepherds, are 238. And the last one that is just up and coming, because people want to breed them because they're beautiful, are wolf dogs. And a wolf dog is any domestic dog that is bred with a actual wolf. And so those dogs, very beautiful, but they're very unpredictable in their behavior because sometimes the wild, animalistic side takes over and they're not very obedient. And their bites... are 406 psi, you just. Want to approach them in a respectful way so that they don't feel threatened can we just let wild animals just be wild?, I know we need to build condos in nature and just take over nature, but, no one needs a wolf., come on, just let a wolf be a beautiful wolf in the timberline. Just let them be, I'll watch them on a documentary, it's fine, I'm gonna have just a little Boston Terrier, it's not gonna hurt anybody, just let the wild animals be wild, and also be a conscientious dog owner, keep people safe, come on, people. very clear rules, I think, to keeping people safe, you're just not listening or following them. Oh, for Pete's sake. Oh, that was awesome, thank you for doing the research, loved it, cool. Okay. Bye. Bye.