American Nightmare-Kidnapping Defense

A couple are subjected to a frightening home invasion and kidnapping and then are blamed for faking the whole thing! We discuss the benefits of watching Home Alone, I get so angry I stand up to record part of the podcast and I get some outside information from a lady cop. This one is a real bummer, but we have yet another inspiring female investigator. 


Check out my Kidnapping Defenses video here  https://youtu.be/Y4jw9kij_YU

Transcript

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Hey everyone, welcome to True Crime Defense, the podcast that nerds out on true crime cases, gives you tips on how to stay safe, and never blames the target of any crime. Hope you enjoy the show! Radhika, are you comfortable with me telling you a horror story? Absolutely. I'm ready. Oof. This is a rough one. I think you told me this is your worst nightmare, but yet you picked this one and the link that I sent you was like, why Radhika? Why? Because you could tell me how to be safe, Shelly. That's why. Okay. Fair enough. I had heard Aaron and Denise interviewed a few years ago, so I knew their story and we got so many warnings for this one. The whole episode, warnings for rape, sexual assault, kidnapping, horrifying police interrogations. misogynistic views of women and assault survivors, gaslighting victims, not believing targets of assault. It is really horrible. I will say we have a lady cop who helps break the case, and that's why I continue to watch, even though it's pretty traumatizing. So if you need to protect yourself and skip this one, we get it. We love you. Go back and listen to Katrina Brownlee again, because that was very inspiring. This actually, it made me think of marginalized communities and how they are treated by some police. I know some cops and they individually are doing really good work. I know that's not true in a lot of communities. I think being a middle class white person, this case made it easier to imagine what it might feel like to know that the police force is not there to help you. Something to think about in imagining a system where you are re victimized and you just don't call the cops because you know it's going to go down badly for you. So you guys, Radhika made me watch American Nightmare two times for this episode. It is a three part series on Netflix. And just a note, I usually go back through my script to punch it up and add some hilarious jokes. Obviously you've heard our show. I do not feel jokey at all. This is going to be a more serious episode. So part one, The Boyfriend. March 23rd, 2015. Aaron sounds extremely guilty on the 911 call. He's pausing oddly. He says they were both tied up and his girlfriend Denise was taken. It says he was untied this morning and that he was given sedatives. He says this attacker knew his name and tied them up before sedating them. The police take DNA, blood, and his clothes and start interrogating him. Matt Mustard is the interrogator, which I could not stop thinking about Colonel Mustard. Yeah, like the Clue game. Exactly. A white light blinds them. He sees three laser dots and hears a taser. And he hears Aaron lie face down. The attacker instructs Denise to zip tie his hands, put swim goggles that are blacked out over his eyes, and headphones over his ears. The recording has wind chimes and a pre recorded message saying he will have his blood pressure taken, be given a sedative, NyQuil, and diazepam. He asked for a blanket and the attacker apologizes and said he's sorry that he's not cold because they're all wearing wetsuits. And he says they are all wearing wetsuits or like we are all wearing wetsuits. Yeah, multiple people. Yeah, he says this was intended for Andrea, Aaron's ex girlfriend. he says the ransom for Denise is 15, 000 and installs a camera to monitor Aaron. They steal Aaron's car and take Denise. Aaron says the sedatives hit and he's out, which is partly why he delayed in reporting. And having seen this whole series, on the second watching, I'm watching the interrogation, and as much as I love chronology, I wanted to add for effect that the police took Aaron's phone and put it in airplane mode, and did not follow up on any of the emails or phone calls in his phone. They could have intervened if they had that phone in functional order. Unfortunately, now the cops have something to sink their teeth into because there had been conflict in the relationship as he continued to work with his ex fiance and they were on bad terms. Andrea, it was Andrea, right? Yes. Andrea, Erin, and Denise all work together. Radhika, just that I think would put you at higher risk for at least being on a dateline or any other true crime documentary. Oh, for sure. You're setting yourself up for the most typical plot line. It's bad news. Andrea said he was still trying to hug and kiss her and was open to the idea of getting back together. Denise asked him to keep his conversations with Andrea to work issues only. Denise found texts from Aaron saying he wanted to get back together with Andrea. I for sure would have thought he was a dirtbag and a killer after this interrogation. At this point in the interrogation I realized that Aaron has never seen a true crime documentary. He does not ask for a lawyer. You're just yelling at the screen, lawyer! Lawyer! Lawyer! Like mine has a really weird name, even though she's not technically my lawyer. She has the office right next door to this one. And I was like, don't forget her name. Don't forget her name. If I ever needed her, God forbid, you know what to yell. Yes. It is so terrifying. He knows Denise needs help and they won't stop saying he's. Killed her. He finally says lawyer after about 18 hours. The lawyers are talking and the grandpa lawyer whose name I forget says, I believe him, but nobody, and I'm going to have to use my bleeping mechanism in the editing. Nobody in North America is going to believe this story because they go back and interview his defense lawyer. A local reporter gets an email audio message from Denise saying she's kidnapped, but otherwise fine. And he takes it to the police and the family confirms that it's her. Which is just such a weird thing that he's going through local like, how did he get, yes, how did he even how do they get a hold of this local reporters, send it to his email and why did they think that that was the right avenue to get this message across maybe it's because they were trying to get through to Aaron's phone, but since it was on airplane mode, he wasn't getting anything. So they're probably like how to make this the most public thing. Would be through a reporter good call. So now is the time to get a nice beverage, or maybe a muscle relaxant or an edible and wait for it to take effect before this next part. That's not me. I'm going to have the ice beverage, but do whatever you have to do. I'm getting mad already. I'm going to be using the bleeping function in my editing software for a lot. So another warning for sexual assault and absolute police nonsense and actually harming and hurting targets of sex crimes. Colonel Mustard asks the family about Denise's boyfriend's history and drinking habits. The mom mentions that Denise was molested as a child and Radhika, I, yeah, I'm gonna, I need to stand up. I'm getting so mad. Oh, I was just. Furious. I was standing up watching TV because I just, oh, I just, I could not take it. It is so off the wall and it shows that he has never ever talked to or been trained on or has any idea what survivors of sexual assault go through. And here's a warning just for the worst thing I think I've ever heard. He has the absolute gall to say to the mother of a target of child sexual abuse, He says, women that have been sexually assaulted often pretend to have it happen again so they can relive the thrill of it. I'm sorry, Radhika. What? It's happened to Colonel Mustard before. this police department field multiple calls per week of women pretending to have been assaulted so that they can relive it. I, I just, I cannot. I don't know. It's like, I don't even know if he thinks that's true. But even if he doesn't think that's true and he's just trying a tactic, it is not what you say out loud. You just never say these things out loud, especially to someone who is a victim of sexual assault or even to their family members. It's just not okay. I hated his interrogation technique from beginning to end. There was no method. It was just him being an the whole time. You were saying your sister's a bit of an expert. What's her job title? she's studying to be an MFT marriage family therapist. So has some concept and like you were saying that she listened to that too. And you were asking is this a real thing? Do women actually do that? She's like, absolutely not. Yeah, she's like, no, She's like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Now we see Denise walking to her dad's house in Huntington Beach, but her dad had flown up to where she was taken, so he wasn't there, which after having been attacked and then just wanting to see a loved one, oh, that broke my heart. Yeah. And then she has duffel bags that she's carrying. Did you have any explanation for that? I didn't. It's like she got off the bus or something from a trip, and I was like, where did she get the duffel bags? What is in the duffel bags? Because she was kidnapped. there's nothing she would take. Yeah, and it was never explained. I did a lot of research outside. I just didn't, I couldn't find any. Mm hmm. That puzzled me too. Mystery. Okay. the PR guy from the police department says they were not able to substantiate anything Aaron told them. He accuses them of taking resources from the community and the media says it was a hoax. And now we get to the Gone Girl movie. It's about a woman who frames her husband for murder. Oh, I guess I should give you a trigger warning. It's a 15 year old movie, but just say, or not a trigger warning, but a spoiler alert. Frames her husband for murder, or at least for disappearance, to punish him for cheating on her. Have you read Gone Girl, the book? I've not read it, nor have I seen it, but I know the story because my sister did. Yeah, I don't read fiction that much, and I broke down, and I read it. It's really good. Not since the earliest version of the Stepford Wives movie in the 1970s has anyone spoken so candidly about what some men truly want from women, and it's not so great for women, and for men. The woman who orchestrates the whole fake disappearance is so diabolical and nasty, I just, I couldn't stop reading it. Oof. Unfortunately for Denise and Aaron, Gone Girl had just come out. So everyone just assumes this is the story. Yeah. She's like, they took inspiration from it. So this is the real life version. So part two, Gone Girl. Denise is in the trunk of the car at 5am. She has on blacked out swim goggles. She's tied up and drugged. He then puts her in the trunk of another car. She's sedated and trying to figure out where he's driving and thinking about what horrors await her. This is just, I, I can't believe this is a real thing. I know because she says she also found the duct tape she found all these I guess kidnapping supplies in the trunk with her I would be so terrified and making up scenarios of what all of these supplies are meant for, for you, but like what else? Yeah, he tells her this was meant for Andrea. He works for a black market company that kidnaps people for money and she'll be released in 48 hours. He's polite and gives her a bathroom break and talks about being in the military and having PTSD. He says he needs collateral to keep her from talking to the police, so he has to film them having sex. I'm having a visceral reaction to this, every time I saw it, it's just the coercion. It's brutal. So yeah, this is the perfect example of coercive sex. She doesn't fight back to keep herself safe and that is bad when dealing with law enforcement because they're looking for physical proof and it bites her later not to have any physical proof of the assault. She records the proof of life that was in the email that had earlier been sent and she says she's so sedated which is why she sounds so calm. And I'm exhausted with the details of the assault so I'm just going to say he insists that she has sex with him again and make it look like they've been having an affair together. He shows her a video of her dad speaking to her that was online. He puts his hand on her back and tries to comfort her. And I don't want to go too deep into his psychology but what a creep. It's so gross. He threatens to come after her and her family if she mentions that any of them is in the military or that they had sex, even though he filmed them having sex. She tells the initial interviewing officer that they did not touch her because she's so scared her family will be hurt. Thankfully, Denise knows to get an attorney pretty quickly once the Vallejo PD tells her she's a suspect. The lawyer believes her and calls Vallejo PD to get a SART, exam. A S A P. So many letters in this sentence. And they say, no, they will interview her first and and then decide if she needs an exam. And I just thought about it, had she taken a shower? that can really impact your case. And then to. I don't know what happened, but then to be like, no, no, no, we're not going to do that kind of exam. We're going to do a full interrogation and then we're going to deal with the proof on your body. And that, one of the things I've heard the most about women who have experienced sexual assault is the first thing you want to do is just walk everything off because it's disgusting and horrible. I hope that didn't happen to her. I don't know, but it's, but they show Aaron talking about finding out that Denise had been sexually assaulted. We don't focus much on a man's trauma in these situations. That must've been just absolutely horrifying to know the person you loved was not only just terrorized, but forced to have sex as well. the threatening, charging her and incarcerating her. Denise seems smart because she sees that this could really be an unhealthy reason to stay together in trauma bond. Aaron says that there's no one protecting us, the kidnappers are still out there, and the police aren't looking for them. Ugh, just the terror. I just, I feel like that was the moment where I was like, do you remember, Aaron, last episode when you, Kind of woke up and you're like, no, one's going to help me, but the police, so I'm going to call them, even though the kidnappers told me not to, because they're going to help me and just the 180 he takes when he realizes that they're trying to find someone to blame and they're the perfect scapegoats. I was like, that feeling is what a lot of. Other people totally go through all the time just on a daily basis. They know ahead of time that nothing's going to be doing. Yep. Yeah. It's terrifying. The same reporter gets an email confession from the kidnapper with photos of the tools he used. He's angry. Denise is being branded a liar. The reporter forwards them to police and never hears back. I was just like, what type of kidnapper is about to be like, no, no, She cannot take credit for any of this. This was my doing. and defending her. Very, very silly. I don't get him. Okay. He sends another email. Now the kidnapper threatens that if Denise doesn't get an apology that they are going to do it again. And then it happens again. And we hear the 9 1 1 call. And we start with Part 3, The Others. 10 weeks after Denise's release, June 5th, 2015, in Dublin, 40 miles from Vallejo. The suspect ran out the back door, the police find zip ties and duct tape, and this dumbass left his phone on the scene. The cops call the subscriber of the plan and find that the owner of the phone is Matthew Muller, who went to Harvard Law, served in the military, and also suspected in sexual batteries and attempted rapes. The investigating officer figures out that who is on the phone plan and figures out that she is the suspected attacker's mother. Veronica went to Harvard Law, but is on his mom's phone plan? Sometimes those rates are just too good. Okay, Shelley, the family plan. This guy is real complicated. the officer tells her, we want to get the phone back to him. So where is he? And she tells him that, oh, he's at her cabin in South Lake Tahoe. I love that. Just so friendly. We'd love to reach out to Sondheim. Okay. Everyone take several seats. Back up. Let this person do her work. There is no need for consternation. Sergeant Misty Karasu will now solve the crime and make me feel better about this whole situation. God bless her and keep her. When she's asked if she wants to serve a warrant on a home invasion assailant, much like Jim Helper, she says, hell yes, I do. That's an office joke, Radhika. I never watched it. Radhika has not seen an office yet. So lame. We see the police cam of the arrest, and it's pretty satisfying to see him minding his business and having no idea he's being stalked, and now he's the one in the cuffs, surrounded by officers invading his home and property in space. Radhika, his profession, his appearance, he's really giving me Ted Bundy. Yes! Yes, I thought that exact same thing when I saw him. just his demeanor of oh, have I been caught? What for? And just his yeah, his, even his face, everything. They find zip ties and duct tape and toy guns painted black with a laser taped to it. The windows are covered. There's a NyQuil bottle with a syringe and a stolen vehicle, which is a white Mustang, and the GPS has addresses in Huntington Beach. And the trunk, they find what looks like a fake person, a pair of goggles with the eyes duct taped. And, I think he put the fake person in the car to make people think there was more than 1 attacker. Maybe Misty sees a strand of blonde hair and she knows they have to find this person. Poor Denise, I wish she had had a media consultant who told her to never read the comments online. Oh, I know. The community thinks they are trash and liars and worse, and they're too traumatized to work, they're couch surfing with family and friends, and I'm sure they were terrified to go back to their homes. David Sesma, who is the lead FBI agent in the case, who used to date Andrea, Aaron's ex girlfriend, which is so bizarre and a conflict of interest. Weird. Because he's essentially connected to the case, but is also investigating the case. They were just like, no, no, no, that is, that is not a conflict of interest. It's fine. I was like, you guys are just making them look as guilty as possible with ignoring all of these other red flags. It's so weird. Denise and Aaron wonder if this is why the case isn't going forward. Muller was suspected in a similar attempted assault in Palo Alto and when Misty mentions his name, the Palo Alto PD officer says, I have a picture of him on my desk and I could never prove that was him. It's all the same details as Denise's case. Somehow he decides not to assault his target because she tells him she had already experienced assault and he didn't want to victimize her again. Yeah. So weird. Wait, now you're a good guy? I just don't get what's going on in his mind. Yeah. Misty becomes a cop because one of her friends was sexually assaulted and she wanted to advocate for targets and help prosecute predators. Yay, Misty! Thank you! We go back to another case in Mountain View in 2009. The same thing, zip ties, NyQuil, blacked out goggles. She begs him not to assault her and for some reason he decides not to and recommends she get a dog so this doesn't happen again. He's like, so that when people like me come in through the door. you will be protected next time. It's such a strange, I think there are some men who will do an assault and then be like the knight in shining armor. I've heard of women having it happen and then, oh, let me walk you home. We don't want anything bad to happen to you. They, I think there's just a, it's a Jekyll and Hyde or there's a perception that it's not. Yeah. They're not doing anything wrong. I, it's just, you end the night on that feeling that you actually helped this person, it pushes what you just did deep back into your subconscious. So that whatever you just did didn't happen anymore. Maybe. Oh, it's so weird. She gets the Denise treatment, and the officer asks if maybe it wasn't a dream, and asks her boyfriend if she made up stories or was an attention seeker. I just sighed here. I'm so bummed. Denise tells us about her awful history of another assault she experienced at age 19, and she reported it because she felt so much guilt after not reporting the assault when she was a child, and it happened to another girl. Ugh, this bitch. Poor woman has just been through so much. The officer she encounters when she's 19 talks her out of reporting because there's no proof. It's just so demoralizing. Yeah. Missy tracks down the Mustang angle and the owner mentions the Mare Island Creeper. In 2014 students were being harassed by a peeper, or a creeper, I guess. The students followed him home one night and learned he's ex military and a lawyer, and Misty knows it's the one she's looking for. The owner says the creeper stopped around the time of the Gone Girl case, and when Misty Googles that case, she finds photos of Denise, and obviously Denise has blonde hair. Also Shelly, this whole time I was like, I just thought something as big of a case that blows up like this would infiltrate other police forces. I was really surprised that Misty never heard of this case when it's all within the same, same NorCal area. the Gone Girl case, was the Vallejo area. Because Misty and everything, that all happened down in Dublin when he Did it again. So I think she was more like, kind of like where we are ish area. I wonder if it's you know how, if you're not seeing it on your internal huddles, as we would call them as nurses. Yeah. You know how I can't watch Grey's Anatomy. I, I, once I became a nurse, I never, ever, ever watch anything medical because I just get sick. so angry the doctors are doing everything and the nurses are just pieces of A, can't handle it or they're still paper charting. I'm going to lose my mind, but I do wonder do police just not watch the news because they're just like I can't I'm steeped in that world I just I don't who knows I don't know. But maybe they just have so many cases on there in their own department in their own area that they're just maybe this wasn't as high profile as It was for us to watch it, for them to, receive the information. Totally right. Uh, so Misty calls Vallejo PD and gets no answer multiple times. She says she's the annoying ex girlfriend that never goes away. I love Misty! She talks to a detective and learns the case is now being run by David Sesma at the FBI and says they have a suspect similar to Denise Huskin's case. She meets with the FBI to show them their case. They recognized the fake gun and goggles and that they had seen the kidnapper's email to the reporter. Denise recognizes his voice from a video on the news, once they figure out he's a suspect. And now Denise and Aaron review the affidavit and heartbreakingly say that if the police had looked at Aaron's phone, they could have found Denise at the cabin and most likely prevented the second assault. Yeah. Ugh, both of them are just so heartbroken and angry. They put his phone on airplane mode, just like we said, even though he said the kidnappers would contact him. Denise and Aaron think there are other attackers and the FBI tells them that he acted alone. Misty is so happy to see Denise's story is validated and says, How dare we as law enforcement ever say something like that? As in not believing a victim's story. I'm like, thank you, Misty, for saying that. Loved it. The assailant was sentenced to 40 years in prison for kidnap, robbery, and rape. In 2016, Denise and Aaron sued the city of Vallejo for defamation. And now we all need to step away from anything we might feel compelled to throw, take some deep breaths, swig a vodka, pull over, because Colonel Mustard, who insinuated that targets of the S. A. like to relive the thrill, was awarded Officer of the Year for 2015. So stupid. Like, good job, you've investigated the best possible way. Denise and Aaron settled out of court for 2. 5 million dollars, which does not seem like very much to me. I think the lawyers take a huge percentage of that and a lot of times juries will there's a limit and I, I doubt they got anywhere close to that. They see Misty as their hero because if she hadn't connected him to their case, they might have been imprisoned for faking a kidnapping. Aaron and Denise get married and have two kids and live on the coast. He says he just wants his girls to grow up to be like their mom. Oh, I know. I was like, this is so sweet. I'm like, that cat I'm allergic to keeps getting in the house and making me mad. That was a real bummer, Radhika. Thanks. I know. Sorry. I was like, it's this really cool case. And then as I watched it, I was like, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks. before we get started on tips for safety, is there anything you want to say to the people about the series? Thanks. No, just that it's not, it's not one of those I don't know, I didn't feel super satisfied because I just felt sad. There are some series where you're yeah, and then we got him and it's just beautiful investigative work, all of that. I feel like the whole time I was just sad. So, if that's If that's definitely not one of the things that you like in a series, I would just listen to us and don't watch it and just learn from it instead. Yes. So I did a little bit of research, after this. I read that he was using a drone to spy on them, which is just terrifying. I listened to not another true crime podcast interview of Aaron and Denise and Aaron said that they are very aware of their privilege being white and upper middle class and he said they recognize that others are experiencing way worse from police than they did. He said they spent 140, 000 on defense lawyers. Wow. Like they, they didn't. They got kidnapped and then now they have to pay it. That's crazy to me. Yeah, in my opinion, this is the Golden State killer, but for our time and he got caught earlier just because of the ability to connect cases in the Internet. Yeah, maybe potentially because there was a woman on the case. There was a woman on the Golden State killer though case too. So who knows? before we move on to talking about safety, I wanted to give people options for contacting us and shout out to our supporters. Thank you so much for joining us. We would love your feedback, case suggestions, or if you just want to say hi, our email is tcdefense at yahoo. com. Our Instagram has self defense videos and you can DM us there at tc underscore defense. YouTube also has self defense videos and episodes at TC underscore D. Thanks to Nick and Kara for checking out our podcast. Aww. Yeah. the first tip I have for foiling a home invasion is the movie Home Alone. Just kidding, Radhika. I was like, really? That's my favorite. It's not too scientific, but slapstick fun. Tons of booby traps. Yeah. the first thing, Radhika, I was investigating and I wanted to know, do dogs prevent crime? Mm hmm. As you suggested, I suppose like this guy probably was afraid of dogs and maybe wouldn't have, attacked people who had dogs. Right. according to a Psychology Today article, a higher concentration of dog owners in a neighborhood correlates with lower crime. Even having a Beware of Dogs sign without a dog in residence can help. I do wonder if the areas with higher numbers of dogs just indicate higher levels of income and wealth, and that's why there's also less crime. dogs are expensive to purchase and maintain. I remember reading in a book, I'll Be Gone in the Dark, about the Golden State Killer, which is a really well written and absolutely devastating and terrifying. Michelle McNamara said a few of the targets had dogs and they didn't do anything, or in one case, fast forward for Animal Cruelty, you just killed the dog and then insulted the people in the house. Yeah, so it's a mixed bag. I also had a really disturbing thought that the Golden State Killer and this assailant, did so much staking out and stalking, and I wonder if he just knew the dogs before he perpetrated the attack, so the dogs were comfortable with him already. Yeah. Oh, that's Frightening. Okay, back to the anti hero of this series. yeah, he was scared of dogs, so there you have it. I wanted to focus on adult kidnappings because the motives are different from the average child kidnapping. I wanted to point out that as parents you spend an inordinate amount of time freaking out about stranger danger and teaching kids to avoid strangers, but the statistics show that kids are most commonly taken by family members who are not strangers. So just a little reorienting you to reality because that's not going to help if the kid knows the person who's taken them. Correct. According to the FBI, out of half a million missing persons cases filed every year, only a few hundred involved in abduction by a stranger. New Mexico has the highest rate of kidnappings. The most common type of kidnappings are custody disputes. So kid kidnapping, most often the abusive parent taking the child to hurt the other parent. I always thought it was the, protective non abusive parent, taking the kid to protect them, but it's the opposite. Yeah, The second most common reason for kidnapping is sexual predators, and I guess the FBI wants to throw in, just to cause further trauma, about 4, 400 unidentified bodies are found each year in the U. S. That's a lot! Oh my god. It feels like a lot. It's phew, yeah. I'm gonna give advice I've gotten from law enforcement and I'm gonna put up a video about how to escape someone who tries to grab you. This is why we're doing the case, so you could teach us. There we go. Yeah, I'll put it out there for you. I do want to preface this case. If a loved one was in peril and my compliance meant they might live, I would be really torn about whether I would fight. I did read Sergeant Rory Miller's meditations on violence a couple of years back, and he recommends fighting and escaping no matter what they're threatening, because at least personally you would want to try to escape to get help versus everyone being harmed or killed. It's a really good read if anyone's interested. Yeah, I might just. Try to leave to get help regardless of what they're threatening because I think I would assume that the person was going to kill all of us anyway, but it's just on a case by case basis. On that note, though, about like fighting and things, one thing that I read was, it's a little sad, but people are more willing to respond to someone screaming fire than they are to someone screaming for help. So I guess as you're fighting off your attacker, just screaming fire will at least draw people's attention to look at you or come towards you or something. Yeah, I think I probably said this on the podcast before, but a friend of mine is a black belt and a cop and he was saying that he recommends, I don't know this person, making it really clear that the person attacking you as a stranger. Sadly, people, if they think it's, a domestic quote unquote, they don't want to get involved. They feel like it's not any of their business. Yeah. So I think we've talked about it before where I've asked people, Hey, if you saw my husband dragging me across a parking lot, would you intervene? A lot of people really hesitated and said, I don't know if I would, if you saw a stranger dragging me across the parking lot, of course they would intervene. Yes. That's terrifying. That's a fair point, yeah. So, yeah, if your brain, when you're so adrenalized and terrified, you can remember to yell, Ah, this person! Or fire! Yeah. Hopefully, that would help, yeah. both Aaron and Denise did the best they could in the situation. Fighting could have caused more injury and damage. Their attacker was ex military. It's not right to think that someone untrained could, or even trained, could escape an attacker like that. So what law enforcement recommends is situational awareness. For example, if you know that you're alone or you're going to be somewhere alone where there's no one around head up, look around, don't appear like you're not aware of anyone's presence. If you're grabbed, make as much noise and fight as hard as you can to not go with them. What they want is quick and quiet, and so putting up a fight to the point that they don't want to deal with you is the goal. If they have a weapon and insist you go with them, do whatever you can to fight where they are not comfortable, which sounds counterintuitive, but the advice by law enforcement is that you might as well put up the fight of your life where there is a potential for bystander intervention, versus them taking you somewhere private where they can do whatever they want. Whatever they want. Obviously that doesn't apply to Denise and Aaron. they were ambushed while they were asleep and then drugged. For home invasion specifically for burglary, I found safe home. com says to install bright lights at all entrances, avoid looking like the home is empty. Don't showcase valuables and don't leave valuables in view outside the home, like an expensive lawnmower, as it can indicate pricier products inside. Don't have a hide a key. Even if you think it's really well hidden, some attackers will case the property and could see a legitimate person using the hide a key and now they know right where it is. High quality doors and windows and locks that won't easily open to brute force are recommended. Window coverings that make it hard for anyone to see inside the home. Eliminate places where an intruder could hide while they try to enter the home, such as trees and shrubbery. Keep the garage door closed, it's an easy entry point. And have a home security system. And Radhika, that all costs money. Yeah, it does. Interesting investigation into class in this documentary. Another thing on garage things, though, is one of the articles I read said, if you have a car and you have the, the garage opener type thing, you would the recommendation is to open the garage, push your car all the way in. And then close the garage before getting out of your car, because at least you're in the safety of having you're locking your car immediately. If somebody does ambush you into your driveway before it gets closed, which I thought about what I do definitely don't do that in my neighborhood half the time. The garage stays open as I'm taking things out of the car But, if you're in a less safe neighborhood, Closing the garage door before you get out of the car is probably a much safer option for you. But also I think we have to remember being, attacked or kidnapped by a stranger is extremely uncommon. If that makes you feel any better. It does a little bit, but one of those fears. Yeah, for sure. What else do you want to say to the people? I was, I just tapped into some of the more psych related things physically, you're going to be strong. You're going to yell. You're going to do whatever you can, or if you're assessing the situation and it. Doesn't seem like the right thing to do. You're going to comply to a certain point, but more on the mental stuff is obviously this is going to be really, really difficult. And if you're an anxious person, 1 thing to remember is like what you said, Julie, it is just such a rare thing. So just remember that before you spiral into being like, this is what's going to happen. But staying calm and being focused on your survival. The suggestion is once you're taken captive, it is really hard to think of this way, but try to dig deep within yourself to find the composure and try to hold on to your dignity rather than crying hysterically or begging for them to let you go. It may make you seem more human. And it'll make them less likely to kill you. Try not to cry even more if you can help it and speak softly and clearly. Don't be belligerent or uncooperative. And if you antagonize your captors, they are more likely to attack or kill you. you think by begging them and pleading them, maybe they're more willing to let you go, but. I'm guessing as someone who's already in an aggressive mental state, that's just going to piss them off and annoy them versus speaking calmly, speaking softly, agreeing to what they want in that moment because you have no other defense, but at the same time being able to pay attention. And if they don't think you're going to run away, there may be a chance that they're going to ease up and you're going to find a better, escape route or something I was going to say the kind of person that does this they don't really have the empathy. No, but then this guy sometimes did. Yeah, he was weird. So it's just so hard to know. It's not really fair to ask someone to know exactly the right way to act. You just have to do the best you can and the scenario and just try to stay calm, like you were saying, and just see where your openings are and then act with conviction when you see that there's a potential for freedom. Mm hmm. I think one of the other things is like, I mean, movies. They show this a lot, but some of the articles were also saying that, if you are taken in a car, there is sometimes one of those glow in the dark handles that can, pop the trunk open, but who's going to do that when they're going down, a super fast freeway? You're going to open it, and then what? There's no place for you to jump out. and so I was like, okay, maybe, maybe not, but also the whole concept of, kicking the taillights so that you can at least put your hand out and, let people know that you're there. But even then, the time it takes for someone to call the cop, for the cop to figure out where you are, if they take an exit, you're gone anyway. And then my fear, again, this is me, is what if that guy, once he parks, finds out that you did do that, and you've alerted people, and now he's extra pissed. I don't know how she survived the, this, I think he probably would have escalated if he'd gone free and would start killing people, is my guess. Yeah, it's so hard to judge. But yeah, even like you were saying, the newer cars do have that glow in the dark. You can hear and you can feel when the car starts to slow down. Yeah. So, potentially that, Is an option in our kids classes, we'll show them like, Hey, you know, this is if you did get even kids sometimes get stuck in cars by accident, you know, around or whatever. And so we'll go in the car, close it, show the glow in the dark. Okay. Pull on that. See that opened it, so at least you're somewhat familiar. Older cars don't have that. Yeah. So you just have to figure something out. But, and she was drugged, oh yeah. She passed out. Yeah, and even if you just learned it in the moment, you're just in panic mode. Who's to say you're not going to remember any of your teachings, especially if you're not a trained, skilled person. this is just there to tell people in case that happens, but I hope it never, ever, ever, ever happens. Cause it's the scariest thing to me in the world. Yeah, do you feel any better now? I think I feel better because I have read up on stuff. So better now. You'll see my video, you'll have some idea what to do, but it's very unlikely. Yes, that is what I want to hit home. It is very, very unlikely. All right, all right. Thanks. And uh, yeah. Bye everybody. Okay. Bye. Hey, everybody. I just wanted to record a little addendum here. I just talked to a friend of mine in law enforcement who got to meet Aaron and Denise and Misty. And she is just really Inspired and thankful that they are speaking out and Misty in particular, her steadfastness, her advocacy for victims really changed the trajectory of Aaron and Denise's lives. They're so thankful and she's really changing the trajectory of policing in my friend's opinion. She is a small woman. She is a feisty woman and she's making big changes. My friend was saying that she thinks there's really a generational shift and police are doing much better than they did in the generation before she said she's waiting for the dinosaurs to die off, but she really was feeling hopeful about the future. So I just wanted to add that. Bye, everybody! Yes. My dad's the kind of person who will do it on Saturday night. Like he'll just start a whole day early to prep us for I don't know what. And so you're just like confused the whole day because you're like, you always have to go back to your phone. Thank God. Our phones do it automatically because everything Changing even the bathroom clocks, like clocks you don't even think about, he'll change them. The day before. We gotta get our dads together. My dad, I was at that conference this week, and I had to go to the airport, and, My hotel is right by the airport. Yeah. And my flight left at 2 like, so I'm gonna pick you up at noon. And I'm like, dad, the conference isn't even over till 1215. I just want to finish it. And he's like, I will negotiate noon is my line in the sand final offer. what difference does it make to you if I miss my flight? You dropped me off. Nope. He was going to come in there and get me, I'm sure, if I wasn't out there. Yup. Well, we're at the airport hours before the pilot even leaves his house. And just in case, you know, just, I don't know. My dad, the day before, just like your dad for a time. Like, I'm like, did you, why didn't you sleep over at the airport last night? Your flight's at 2 PM. What are you doing? You are late. Holy moly. I just love to hear that. It's not just me. Same. Actually, now I'm really happy to hear it. It's not just mine either. all Well, I wanted to, what was the poison and curry one or like some poisonings or something? Yes. Curry and cyanide. You have to watch it. Maybe we, I mean, maybe we could do something on poison food, but I really don't know how to tell. You could tell poison food until you've eaten and died. How do you, how are you going to, I can guess everything you've eaten, but you just can't. We're going to find out. We'll figure it out. I'm going to do the research.